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Talk:Character creation
Starting Gear I was thinking to add a table of the standard starting gear for each base class. Would that table be more appropriate here or in the packages article? - MrZork (talk) 23:18, August 18, 2014 (UTC) * To flesh out the idea, I was thinking of an extra section call "Starting gear" with something like the following in it: :Newly created characters will have some gold and items specific to their base class and package chosen during character creation, as determined by packages.2da and related PackEQ*.2da files. Modules commonly customize starting gear via scripting. :The standard gear includes a torch and three potions of cure light wounds. Other gear for each base class is shown below. Any package choices that alter the base class' gear is also shown. :Note that some starting items may not be usable be all characters. In particular: '' :*''Large weapons (double axes, greataxes, greatswords,and quarterstaves) may not be equipped by gnome and halfling characters. Further, the barbarian orcblood package does not choose exotic weapons proficiency, so characters (of any race) selecting that package will start out with no usable weapon. :*''Sleep scrolls will not be usable by wizards specializing in the illusion spell school. Summon creature I scrolls will not be usable by wizards specializing in the abjuration, evocation, or transmutation spell schools.'' :- MrZork (talk) 23:49, August 18, 2014 (UTC) :* Seems well-organized to me, MrZork. The only change I suggest, strictly cosmetic in nature, is to change the cell background color of the column headings to be a bit darker for better contrast. If you are going to link the titles, it is hard to read the titles themselves (the text for links looks like a very light blue on this machine), though it could be a rendering or settings issue with the browser I am using. Then change the "Other" title to a lighter color text since it will likely begin to blend in with the darker cell background. ::IMO this article is probably the best place since the class articles wouldn't need such information if the class was being referenced for multiclassing after creation. Besides, it's interesting to see them all viewable side-by-side for comparison's sake. Since I never use the pre-fabbed packages, some of the information comes as a surprise to me. --Iconclast (talk) 13:51, August 19, 2014 (UTC) ::* Thanks. I ended up looking all of this up (or writing a script that did) because I wanted to know which spells my wizard toons didn't need to chose at character creation because they would start out with scrolls from which they could learn them. :) ::: I think the information would be best in the character creation article here as well. However, to clarify, I wasn't proposing that the alternative location be in the individual class articles, but in the package article. ::: I don't know how to change the background color of the column headings. I don't use the light-text-on-dark-background theme, so it doesn't look odd to me. Maybe a different table template would be better or some change can be made to the wikitable template? ::: I have added a note about starting items that certain characters will not be able to use. - MrZork (talk) 17:45, August 19, 2014 (UTC) :::* I'd prefer you didn't spend needless time with formatting, but if you just want to toy with the table you have so far to see how it can be colorized, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Table#Color.3B_scope_of_parameters if you haven't already. It's actually a decent resource for wiki formatting. --Iconclast (talk) 01:25, August 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::* Specifying colors inline like that tends to only work well if everyone is looking at the same color scheme... --The Krit (talk) 02:36, August 21, 2014 (UTC) :::* A big reason I didn't bother with the color of links in the header cells is that links in header cells are usually an inferior choice. In this case, "Class" does not need to be linked since each class is (in other places, we would tend to use "the barbarian class" rather than "the barbarian class"). "Package" would not be linked if this was in the package article. An adjustment to the intro blurb removes the need to link "gold", "armor", and "weapon": The standard gear includes a torch, three potions of ''cure light wounds, some gold, armor, weapons, and possibly some miscellaneous items as shown below.'' Also, instead of calling something "base class' gear", I would fill in "others" or "all" (as appropriate) in the package column for those rows. --The Krit (talk) 02:35, August 21, 2014 (UTC) * The only drawback I see with the specifying the starting gear by package is that most players would not select a package for the starting gear (because the feat and skill selection that comes with opting a package is often not the best). Also, often servers and sometimes single player modules wipe initial gear just to be safe, in which case the starting package is just measured by skills and feats. However, I can't think of a good way to display the skills and feats without crowding a table (for an 18 intelligence human rogue, we would be looking at 13 skills and 2 feats, assuming the top 13 in the package are all class skills). Anyway, a table on skills and feats would better belong in the "package" article, while the starting gear is probably best here, although a link could be made from "package" to here for starting gear inquiries. WhiZard (talk) 01:48, August 20, 2014 (UTC) :* I quite agree. The default skill/feat creation packages, though interesting to know ahead of the actual selection procedure, might be a permutation nightmare to display. Some new players accidentally "hop" through creation ending up with a starting build that doesn't really suit their needs in retrospect. But I assume they are just in a hurry to start playing and consider building a character secondary to experiencing the game play itself. --Iconclast (talk) 02:17, August 20, 2014 (UTC) ::* You could create an article for each package. They're basically on the level of builds, and we have articles for builds. --The Krit (talk) 15:41, September 13, 2014 (UTC) :* Given that the feat and skill selections that come with a package are often not the best, I would have come to the conclusion that starting gear is the reason to choose one package over another. As in, select the package, then configure it and do not hit "recommended". Then again, I tend to ignore the starting gear, which leaves me with no reason to pick one package over another other than picking the one closest to my character concept (simply for kicks). --The Krit (talk) 02:43, August 21, 2014 (UTC) ::* Nope, in principle this should work. In practice, no matter what package you select, when you go to "Configure Package" you are getting the items for the default package. WhiZard (talk) 04:41, August 21, 2014 (UTC) :::* This is what I have found as well. Because of this, I almost only created a starting item table for the default packages, since any move to customize a package results in the default package's gear. But, since I suspect that people using the packages may largely consist of people who aren't comfortable with chosing skills and so on themselves, it would still be useful for them to know the starting gear for the other packages. - MrZork (talk) 12:34, August 21, 2014 (UTC) ::::* What about merely stating that choosing some packages will change the weapon and possibly the shield given as starting gear? No other starting gear is changed by going to a package. Then the table will have one entry per class, and would be more class dependent than package dependent. WhiZard (talk) 14:56, August 21, 2014 (UTC) :::* Well, how about that. I checked the .bif of a character that definitely selected a package before customizing it, and it does have the default package stored, not the one I selected. --The Krit (talk) 04:46, August 22, 2014 (UTC) * I think the package article is a better place for the table. It is based on package, and it really is not a significant factor as far as character creation and leveling up go. Although, mention of the starting gear should probably be made in this article. I'll go do that. --The Krit (talk) 02:45, August 21, 2014 (UTC) Here is a conflation for the table that I propose. I included a list at the end for the packages noting the draw back that the game selects feats and skills. The standard gear includes a torch and three potions of cure light wounds. Other gear for each base class is shown below. Any ranged weapon is given one full stack of ammunition. A player may also obtain different weapons and shield if they select a package when creating their character. This comes with the drawback that the game will select the skills and feats for the character. Below are given the possible alterations for weapons and shields. :Barbarian Orcblood: double axe :Barbarian Savage: nothing :Barbarian Slayer: sling, greatsword :Fighter Finesse: rapier, light crossbow :Fighter Pirate: rapier, light crossbow :Monk Devout: quarterstaff :Monk Peasant: kama, shuriken :Monk Spirit Warrior: light crossbow :Paladin Errant: large shield, longsword :Paladin Inquisitor: large shield, longsword :Paladin Undead Hunter: mace, light crossbow :Ranger Giant-Killer: greataxe, dagger, shortbow :Ranger Marksman: light flail, dagger, shortbow :Ranger Stalker: 2 shortswords, shortbow :Ranger Warden: greatsword, dagger, shortbow :Rogue Swashbuckler: rapier, dagger WhiZard (talk) 16:28, August 21, 2014 (UTC) * Seems a bit less cluttered when the unique packages are broken out like this. And I can read the column headings. Woohoo! Funny that no package provides a helmet except the default pally. Guess the basic paladin is the only one that has bad hair days. Good 'ol Bioware :) --Iconclast (talk) 18:59, August 21, 2014 (UTC) * I would get rid of the "Other" column and move that info to the intro: "The standard gear includes a torch and three potions of ''cure light wounds. Arcane classes (bard, sorcerer, and wizard) are given scrolls of magic missile, protection from alignment, sleep, and summon creature I. Rogues are given thieves' tools +1 and a minor spike trap kit. Also included are gold, armor, and weapons as shown below. (Any ranged weapon is augmented by one full stack of ammunition.)"'' --The Krit (talk) 15:48, September 13, 2014 (UTC)